Miles O’Brien? Cheif Miles O’Brien from the starship Enterprise? What are you doing here during this time? Helping humanity prove the obvious that there’s water on Mars? I’m guessing we’re not yet working hard on warp engines…

beam me up o’brien! He’s come back in time to teach us about the universe!

lol no,no really i do think this is fascinating.

The polar region of Mars is around 200 Kelvin. Isn’t it more likely that the sublimation seen (from the “white substance”) was from Carbon Dioxide?

It could be frozen CO2 (dry ice), not necessarily frozen water.

…obvious there’s water on mars? When’s the last time you were there?
Is it equally obvious that the moon is made of cheese?

Yeah, but did they find water on Uranus?

awesome, I’ve been following this mission with great interest ever since Phoenix landed. I love this kind of stuff.

I hope they equipped the lander with an auger tool. I’m not sure if that little shovel is going to be very effective against solid ice.

We’ve found ice on comets, on Pluto, on the spectral scans of distant space. SO WHAT? It’s not “tantalizing ” to find ice at the Martian poles. It’s what I like to call “expected”.

Everyone knows the mars landing is staged……it’s not rare to find ice in new mexico

If we discover larger concentrations of water, and eventually hard evidence of life on Mars, how will that affect religious folks who swear that the Bible is the one-and-only account of the history of the universe? Would this discovery completely shatter their reality? Or will they just ret-con their dogma to conform to the new information? Perhaps they’ll just completely deny it, regardless of how much proof is presented?

Either way, it ought to be interesting. If I were a hardcore religious person these days, I’d be pretty darn confused about all this.

…I’ve often thought that our polar lander that pulled that disappearing act around the turn of the century probably melted a hole in the ice, then drowned in the puddle it had created.

Wow.

Something for the accounting staffers to “…They’re not?” about for sure.

…But is it drinkable?

Please, no “Hey Mikey” ~ we’re retired.

-Perky

What a coincidence! Chief Engineer Miles O’Brian is now working for CNN?

How do they know it’s frozen water and not frozen carbon dioxide?

Miles - you have stated in a recent broadcast all but unequivocally that these dice sized objects were water ice without explaining what other liquid ice crystals they could have been, or the likllihood of some other liquid ice besides water being on Mars.

Why even speculate - will the mass spectronomer on the lander definitively test for water?

I find this whole deal crazy interesting. I mean, come on, i couldnt do this kind of work remotely to my back yard.

Umm.. are they sure this time? First it was salt, then ajax, then…
For a multi million dollar probe, the the arm really sucks.

What are you talking about! there is life on Mars! thats were they froze Walt Disney lol

Rock on. Lets go there and make a swimming pool

Thank you, Miles, for this blog article on the Phoenix mission. You touched upon a topic that was in the center of my thoughts regarding the “white substance” observed by the Phoenix lander. My question was: “Because the white substance disappeared over time, how does that prove it to be frozen water, rather than some other substance?” I had become concerned that the JPL team was hoping with such intensity to find water on the Martian surface that perhaps their enthusiasm may have surpassed the necessary science.

The question in my mind was exactly about sublimation to the atmosphere of the white substance. Your Blog provided direct information to my question and that is science reporting done very well. The sublimation process would avoid the liquid state of water and also Martian mud that could result. Although the sublimation definition is in no way the proof of water on Mars, the public’s thoughs are drawn to a critically important part of physics regarding how water behaves at various temperatures and pressures.

However, we must remain true to science (chemistry and physics) as we proceed with the exploration on the Martian surface. JPL must prove what the “white substance” is. I know that such proof is the goal of the excellent enginieers and scientists at JPL, but realizing that the key to future funding for Mars missions has its roots on whether Mars has water for Martian Colonists from Earth to use in si/tu on future manned missions, I encourage JPL to remain calm until the proof is verified. Thanks again for the excellent topic and information on this Blog!

Just a thought from an worried armchair scientist looking after his young lander.

This is all great news, but as always I worry about our little lander like it was my own 9 year old child wandering across the surface. It may sound weird but I have always been like that with Opportunity and Spirit landers (which are still rolling along, thankfully), but Phoenix is still new at this job.

My concern is that the ice beneath Phoenix, now that it is uncovered and exposed, will sublimate, turning from ice to a gas and leave…..nothing below the lander!!??. This would eventually cause Phoenix to slowly or perhaps not so slowly sink into the Martian soil like a poor explorer trapped in quicksand.

Don’t get me wrong, I love being a witness to the exploration of another planet in my lifetime. Wonderful time to be alive.

It’s not ice. It’s the frosting on the cake for Phoenix.

Could it just be methane ice prevelant on all planets except earth?

I’m pretty sure that the ovens on the Phoenix do not have the capability to detect organic material. They can, however, detect “signs of life,” but this is a far cry from the declaration “there was (or maybe even is) life on Mars.” I think this article needs to tone down the sensationalism. It does mention that a successful analysis would be strong evidence, but it seems to gloss over the fact that anything found on this mission will be nothing more than hints rather than a definitive answer to that grand question of life on Mars (and other planets, solar system, universe, this question has grand implications). Moving instantaneously may work on TV, but not with NASA. This will take a long time before we see a clear picture of Martian history.

Mr. Avera uses many words to say little. But now he knows what sublimation is. Perhaps the white substance is frozen CO2, which also sublimes and appears white in its solid state. Go NASA…cheaper, better, faster! Or is that good, better, best?

dont jump the gun yet. assuming there is any kind of (H2O) on mars without actually knowing for sure is just going to fall to disappointment. let the public know when NASA can give a straight answer yes or no on the “big question”

I am so excited for you Miles, and Mr. Smith, this is a gift from heaven.
I wish you would dig from the upper right area (bear)..i think you’ll find what your hoping for…confirmation
For those of the faith world this is a revlation completed..a really good thing…….:-)
Glad you were able to patch the program as well….things are looking real good for everyone down here..and up there….

Good Work Miles, I miss you on the broadcasts
Also Good Job on the Morning show this week
looking good

Might this be just dry ice? The atmosphere is carbon dioxide and the temperature at the polls is right for dry ice to exist. Even though water would evaporate, so would co2 gas correct?

… Maybe the white pieces are weapons of mass destruction…

Scott, i’m one of those religious folks..and NO this does not bring disillusionment..it actually enhances ones faith..remember those of faith hold the truth that God created the Universe and all that is in it…and earth was where he planted (metaphor) man….. Science is wonderful…God was the master Scientist…he has all the answers….we puny humans are just getting a glimpse..for now..:-)

The white in the photo also looks like volcanic ash. But then maybe they were a cluster of white microbeings gathered to look at the giant robot….

How can tehy say it’s ice just from seeing it and not testing it? That would be like saying UFO’s really exist, just because there are so many sightings! Seems to be a double standard, it’s ice if they say it is and not ice if they say it’s not… all based on “sight” Too bad “Scientist” don’t believe life could develop outside this little blue marble called earth.

Not to sound sarcastic…just don’t know for sure….but to the CO2 contributors….any evidence it stays viable at the temperatures at Mars to dig channels in the environment as similar looking to the ones water have made at home marble?

That ‘blog’…was one of the most childish, down-talking pieces of drivel I have ever seen CNN dare put its logo on.

Don’t assume we’re idiots, we’d be on reading Fox if we wanted that. I’m off to a real site to get actual useful information.

Step it up a notch, guys.

..Or not.

It could be frozen CO2 (dry ice), not necessarily frozen water.
————

Nope, if it had been CO2, it wouldn’t have vaporized. It’s most probably, if not definitely, water ice.

What a sad sack bunch of comments.

This is real science being conducted by very dedicated folk at NASA, JPL and the UA.

Yet most of the responses seem to be sophomoric attempts at sounding glib and “cool”.

I am very proud of the real folk doing the real science that was reported. And I’m really sorry I wasted a nanosecond of time reading the childish comments that followed.

Grow up.

Doubt if it’s C02,… they already have photos of water like substances
tsquirting from fissures, also all the evidence of water carved canyons ect.

It’s logical to assume that all the water on Mars did not escape into the atmosphere, but was frozen in the caps and under ground.

Also let’s not forget the orbital spectral scans indicated oceans of water under the poles.

Regards to the risk of sinking, I believe they landed during a winter season, and know their time is limited.

ice-big whoop. go search for mars artifacts on google and youtube, the government is hiding their knowledge of whats on that planet, also search for the moon buildings and whats really on the other side of the moon.

I WANT TO KNOW HOW ANYONE CAN SAY IT IS WATER ICE, AND NOT METHANE OR CO2? DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW IT WAS DETERMINED TO BE WATER?

I am not going to act like I am smarter than some of the people posting on this board, but they say that co2 can exist at solid form at the temperature more readily than h2o, so if the co2 was exposed to the enviroment i would not necessarily sublimate but that when ice was exposed to the enviorment it would, maybe and explanation on why they believe it is h20 and not co2.

Please put the CO2 ice speculation to rest. If you read and did the homework, CO2 is too unstable and would not have remained as a solid for even a day on Mars, whereas the chucks took 3 days to sublimate.

Interesting that I’m also a very religious person, and I can’t really figure out why this should ’shatter my reality’ or require ‘retconning.’ I mean, does it say somewhere that in order to believe in God, it’s also absolutely necessary to believe that ice can’t exist on Mars? That’s one of the most specious and illogical attacks on religion that I’ve ever heard.

Another fascinating moment in humanity’s exploration of the wonders and mysteries of Creation.

Enough looking for Ice or water, we want nasa to look for aliens in mars….i think they’re deep underground martian soil. They need to digg deep, who knows they might find oil too down there.

Not to be a blog addict..but wanted to share this with the space explorers: Google Earth (space) go to add placemark, enter these values
Latitude 36.6912*
Longitude 135.58*
Range 1060m
Heading-15,000000*
Hope you see what others do!

Why must they have sublimated? Here today, gone 4 days later, lots
could have happened. And why didn’t the other chunks that also have the same coloring not disappear? NASA needs to do another experiment. Did up some more “dice” and photograph them every 12 hours and really see if it is sublimating. I could be some other process they never thought of. NEVER jump to conclusions in science, only observe.

powdery white substance that disappeared by itself . . . that happens to me all the time, man! My roommate swears he’s not taking it.

Anyway, like about the Bible and the creations story (or stories; there are actually two in Genesis), you know–that was never supposed to be, like, a literal explanation. Some of my forebears, Native Americans from the plains, have this story about Old Man Coyote creating the night sky by shooting arrows through the rotating canopy of night and letting some of the sunlight behind it in. These were really smart people and they knew the story was allegorical when they told it. The people who first told the Genesis story would snicker if they heard that people today go to court to get it taught in schools as plausible fact.

Religion is about spiritual truth–higher truth, not about those realities that conflict with what’s scientifically demonstrable. In the same way that religion was about helping my ancestors understand the spiritual reasons for night versus day, so the purpose of religion these days is to help us understand that, as a species we are not alone; we are so temporary in a galactic sense that we will never physically interact with another intelligent species from another solar system before our planet or our stupidity does us in; but somehow our existence fulfills a purpose in the cosmos that is beyond our understanding. Only a Higher Power can help us fill in the blanks on that one.

I wonder how many starving kids that money could have fed instead. No wonder we have a 3 trillion dollar deficit. I can think of one one million better uses for that money.

Hello, Scott,

Hard core religious guy here. For enlightenment, check out reasons.org, I double dog dare you! Given that experiments demonstrate that the salinity of the ancient Martian lakes were significantly higher (activity around 0.5 to 0.75, lower is more salty) than what any known earth extremophile can endure (around 0.85), I’m doubtful that any life or life remains will be found on Mars other than perhaps life molecules transported from Earth to Mars by cometary impacts to the Earth. At high salt levels cell membranes can’t form.

What if no life is found? What if scientific advances continue to demonstrate the increasingly narrow range of conditions necessary to support life? What if the best explanation of life on earth really is work of a loving God? Can you follow the truth wherever it leads?

Will

As to: “Might this be just dry ice? The atmosphere is carbon dioxide and the temperature at the polls is right for dry ice to exist. Even though water would evaporate, so would co2 gas correct?”

No way. It is way too hot for frozen carbon dioxide to exist there.

I should have added above that it is too hot for “dry ice” to exist at this location. At the poles, it gets cold enough in the winter.

Excellent question, though. I carefully re-checked the data myself.

I agree with Joe. If they found white powder in the mailroom, they’d quarantine it…let’s face it. Al Qaeda beat us to mars….Don’t send a lander, send 20,000 miles of yellow “caution tape”.

Apparently they have good reason for ruling out CO2: “The key new evidence is that chunks of bright material exposed by digging on June 15 and still present on June 16 had vaporized by June 19. … said Mark Lemmon of Texas A&M University, He said the disappearing chunks could not have been carbon-dioxide ice at the local temperatures because that material would not have been stable for even one day as a solid. ” (JPL web site)

Still, it will be good to get additional data from the on-board instruments.

Scott,

The ignorance displayed in your post is actually disturbing to me. You have absolutely no understanding of Christianity. How finding water or even life on Mars would affect the faith of a Christian is beyond me.

Brainwashed by anti-religious dogma and fundamentalism, much?

people of faith better get ready. Cause once we find life, all bets are off. There is no heaven or hell.

That sucks. It would be nice to have something like that…

Wow…litlle sprinkles of dirt, now maybe some white stuff….what a boring mission this has been. Ice is not hard to imagine on Mars or any other body in space, but what kind of ice? Certainly not H20 variety on the surface. How much is this costing tax payers and what is the net benefit? Don’t get me wrong, there is value in knowledge, but give me a break. Quit messing around and send a manned mission. And by the way, how about spending some of the money to figure out what we are going to do when the Shuttle program is scraped. The US is going to be without a manned space vehicle for a decade at current estimates.

CNN comments…

The very worst on the internet!!

what are we planning to do with that ice? replace our melting polar caps?

Frankly I thought the whit substance was either meth or cocaine, which would only point to a more troubling problem with the Phoenix lander and NASA as a whole. I think the lander needs to just say no.

Great report Miles. We need to figure out some way to get you into space. Imagine the reporting you could do from the space station. Now that would be news.

“This tells us we’ve got water ice within reach of the arm, which means we can continue this investigation with the tools we brought with us,” said Mark Lemmon of Texas A&M University, College Station, lead scientist for Phoenix’s Surface Stereo Imager camera. He said the disappearing chunks could not have been carbon-dioxide ice at the local temperatures because that material would not have been stable for even one day as a solid.

Ice? No duh - maybe that is why the caps on Mars have been white all along. Another distraction for the public from the plethora of civilization evidence elsewhere on that planet, that NASA already knows about.

This is an amazing feat as are the rovers Spirit and Opportunity. Going to the moon in 1969 was an amazing feat. We learn about our world and solar system while making techology advances. Several countries are involved in this one as well. It is nice to see that this country and others still have a drive to explore and discover. I follow these missions with the excitement I had as a child. The people involved in these must be thrilled. Morons who believe this is a waste of money or joke about it just will never get it.

At that temperature it could be frozen vodka, much more interesting than dreary ice.

Isn’t funny how snarky everybody is in these comment sections?

Hmmmmm.

Why are you reporting on space when people are dying in Iraq?

Waaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!

This is obviously frozen CO2. I don’t know why some are saying its water.

All I see in the horizon is a dead beat Planet. There are more living things in the saudi desert lol.But I guess just getting to mars is a cool thing.

After 26 days, why are they taking so long to dig some of this stuff up and place in the ovens and find out for sure? Don’t they run the risk of running out of batteries or some other type of failure?

I agree with the previous comment that for all the money, this probe’s “arm” sure seems like a joke. I’ve seen kids in junior high build better robots for a couple hundred bucks.

We need to find a group of people crazy enough to spend 2 years in space and just send ‘em. Get it over with already!

Chief O’Brien, thanks for your Chief Engineer’s Log….clearly more research needs to be done. Please go ahead with full tricorder diagnostic.
Ryker out.

This is Seti Alpha five!

You see, their young enter through the ears and wrap themselves around the cerebral cortex. This has the effect of rendering the victim extremely susceptible to suggestion. Later as they grow follows madness and death.

It is true that water ice will sublime, but given the conditions (temperature and pressure) on the planet would sublime very slowly and should not “disappear” in such a short time. The vapor pressure of water ice under these conditions is too low. Surely NASA scientists have performed this relatively simple calculation so why not report the results? The white solid is behaving much more like solid carbon dioxide.

I was really more curious about the water that was coming out of the side of the hill that was seen from space.
Having another lander that could move around seems more exciting than this . Like another person said there is ice on comets.. And other planets. So this isn’t really a big surprise.It will be interesting to hear what they find in the ice..

I think Bush and all of his supporters should be sent on a mission, a permanent one, to colonize Mars. Mars is named after the Roman god of war, so what could be more fitting? It would benefit planet earth and the rest of it’s inhabitants tremendously : )

The lander just exposed the ice of the hockey rink this is all staged in. The Toronto Maple Leafs have to make money somehow so why not rent out their empty hockey rink until next season.

Ice. Big deal. They already know there was once water on mars. Why waste the money to look for ice? I say send death row inmates to Mars. At least if they die it is no big deal.

Our robots are like RC cars with sand castle shovels. I think they spent more effort to make Kung Foo Panda then the mars rover I understand its like working in negative 200 degrees, but come on, put some lasers on that megatron.

We should be looking for oil instead of water!

I am surprised that the scientists are so eager to jump to conclusions that the “white stuff” is water ice. The atmosphere of Mars is mostly carbon dioxide (~ 95%) with a minute amount of water vapor (~ 0.03%). There is three orders of magnitude more carbon dioxide than water vapor on Mars. Since Carbon dioxide also freezes at the Martian temperature and sublimates, the physics states that the “white stuff” should be mainly frozen carbon dioxide with minute trace amount of frozen water.

My basic comment is that the news report from NASA and CNN imply the possibility of frozen water ice, indicating the possibility that traces of life may be present or have been present. In fact the physics state that the subsurface ice is “all” frozen carbon dioxide. This would mean that life as we know it is not present on Mars, and most likely was never present. Please be more objective in reporting the facts, and don’t mislead the public thinking that some great scientific finding is about to take place when the physics indicate otherwise.

Boeing Technical Fellow (retired)

They almost got my webbed foot in the photo. Silly Earth people.

A mysterious “white substance”? Possibly containing organics? Probably Martian cocaine. DEA should look into NASA suspicious activities on Mars.

No, he’s right, it could ONLY be water ice, because water ice is the ONLY substance that would sublimate, and the only substance that would appear to be white. Now I just need to find out why everyone who ships perishable foods say that they ship it in dry ice, when it is actually water ice!

Exciting for some !!

TG it is not oil (could you imagine the price next week?) !! Anyhow, we may never know what that substance really is, until we get there. Since the stuff disappears, after it is uncovered (according to the article), it would be a challenge to get a sample back to earth, without sending a (human) mission to nvestigate (hopefully, we can find a robot - to do this, inexpensively).

Good work though, and hopefully we can get science to fund and discover new and abundant energy sources, right here on earth, before we get to the next frontier.

I planet covered in Cocaine, imagine the possibilities !

As many have commented, NASA absolutely knew there would be water ice on Mars, long before the Phoenix was launched. So what does the Phoenix do? Confirm something we already know. My question is: why have they not ever put a device on a lander that would actually be able to detect microbes if they exist, say a microscope with sufficient magnifying power??? (there is one on Phoenix, but with insufficient power). The answer is: If NASA does confirm there is life of any kind, then they just shot themselves in the foot. There would be no more need for any more robotic missions (employing thousands of engineers, and sucking up lot’s of taxpayer $$). And don’t doubt they could send a really good microscope!! Look at everything else they’ve achieved! It’s no different than the Halliburton war machine that runs the U.S. If peace broke out fortunes would be lost!

all lot of Bull S***
well very nice mars has water, but how about we take care of the plenty of water we have here right on earth so that generations to come continue to enjoy clean water like they have since time began and we are f****king it all up like there is no tomorrow

i am talking water and soil polution

So now we have ice… who’s bringing the tumbler, the Wodka and the Martini?

I think the scientists who claim that this is “water ice” need to go back and rethink that a little bit. If it is ice, which I still doubt highly, it’s more than likely frozen carbon dioxide or some other frozen material, not hydrogen dioxide. More likely than not, it’s salt.

Interestingly enough, nobody in the Bush administration is arguing the white substance is Antrhax.

Regarding the comment by ‘Joe Blow’ that the white stuff could be methane ice, which occurs on other bodies in the solar system other than Earth….

…solid methane-based ice does occur naturally on Earth, I believe, in the form of methane hydrate ice found on parts of the ocean floor in many parts of the world’s oceans…

…so, solid methane is not confined to gas giant planets or extremely cold moons… it can form as a hydrate under appropriate conditions of cold and pressure…

…but the question about the presumptive ‘ice’ being CO2 instead of H2O is a good point, and a good catch… I wondered about that when I heard the first media reports about white stuff.

Also, the method by which any water was deposited close to the surface of Mars would have a bearing on whether it might have any chemical traces indicating life… if it got there from sudden outgassing from a volcanic or impact event, for example, it might not have picked up much chemistry related to biological processes, even it it exists somewhere on the planet.

When the first technology for remotely automating the detection of chemical signs of life was being developed back in the 60’s and early ’70s, I believe that some of the scientists doing the work were surprised to find that rocky soil from some super-arid high plains in South America failed to register traces of organic life, at least to the instruments available back then… the combination of millennia of extreme dryness, alternating extreme heat and cold, and less filtered solar radiation apparently made signs of organic life pretty rare and hard to detect.

So, if there was, or is life anywhere on Mars, perhaps Phoenix will find it at the landing site, but if it doesn’t, well , it may either be evidence that there’s never been any life on Mars, or just that the surface of a polar region isn’t the best place to look for it now.

But I have to say, I think the Mars rovers, and the latest survey satellites, and now the polar lander, are all brilliant.

It’d be great if this latest mission finds signs of life, but like some other posters to this conversation, I’m just gobsmacked at what has been achieved in the exploration of Mars by remote instruments.

Unbelievable. In the best way possible. It opens our minds in new ways.

Here’s hoping that the Phoenix team do find evidence of life, but in any case, Mars now does have evidence of a pretty interesting life form, in orbit, and motoring around the landscape, and digging diligently for signs of our possible, very distant, relatives.

“I agree with the previous comment that for all the money, this probe’s “arm” sure seems like a joke. I’ve seen kids in junior high build better robots for a couple hundred bucks.

We need to find a group of people crazy enough to spend 2 years in space and just send ‘em. Get it over with already!”

I will pay you 10,000 dollars via paypal if you find a junior high school student who can build a arm as advanced as this robot and send me pics by the end of this month.

Cool! maybe its gatorade. lol

i hope the find crude oil, gas prices are way to high here… come on mars hook us up.

This is pathetic. The whole US space program, as far as the public is concerned, has done nothing impressive nor remarkable since the 1970’s. Sure, you can point to the space shuttle, you can point to a few pictures, you can point to some spectral analysis of bodies that no-one cares about - but by and large we stopped trying the day we beat the Russians to the moon. It’s sad that the wonder has been lost.

Strong work Miles. I love your enthusiam for this stuff.

I would agree with Scott regarding the religious concerns. This will either cause the religious followers to start accepting scientific evidence as fact, such as radiometric dating, or provide them with a whole new problem of trying to make any new evidence fit with the stories found in the Old Testament. I don’t know where we came from but at least we are on the right tract to broaden our views of other life outside of our planet and hopefully open some eyes that have refused to see clearly. Although I’m sure Callahan will help us see the errors of our ways.

Michael,

Congratulations on knowing a few kids in junior high who can build a robot. Now, show me a few kids in jr high who can build a robot that can withstand launch, escape, vacuum travel, entry and landing.

2 things. 1st, I’m pretty sure H20 doesn’t sublimate. C02 does, and there is known abundance of C02 on Mars.

2nd, someone mentioned methane ice. that is also a very good explination. There IS methane ice on earth, on the very bottom of the ocean floor in the Bermuda triangle.

Re; Miles O’Brien

Sublimation occurs because of the low preasure, not because of the temperature.

TO S. Callahan:
How about leaving the URL? I can’tfind what your talkin’ about…..

its clear that its crack cocaine.the martiands are drug dealers

Hi Miles

I had sent you some interesting photos of the Martian south polar region—where the Phoenix is not, unfortunately, that strongly hints at lichens. I don’t know if you’ve seen the e-mail I sent some weeks sgo, but my worry is that if Phoenix finds no organics at the north polar landing site, we could go another 20 years before another Mars lander mission. This is what happened after Viking announced no life on Mars, and we kind of gave up. Anyway, keep up the good work—

Sincerely, Ed

i saw elvis’s image on the “water ice” before it went “poof”

“Proof! Water Ice Found on Mars”

That’s good news but I tipped then off 2 days before they announce that on Space.coms message board see:

http://www.space.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat:c7921f8b-94ec-454a-9715-3770aac6e2caForum:d148ee4c-9f4c-47f9-aa95-7a42941583c6Discussion:436f90e5-d3e9-4c9d-ad0c-2ae4473dfbd0&plckCurrentPage=26&sid=sitelife.space.com

Three cheers for??? Now that we got that out of our way the next big leap is when they discover high concentrations of carbon in the soil. Knowing how long it was to state the obvious then it will take them another 40 years to prove that the creepy crawlers moving around in those dug trenches are really life forms…..

frozen water sublimes, try hanging out clothes out in the winter while wet, eventually they’ll get dry, faster than you’d think.

The fact that something has a different color on Mars besides the rusty landscape is great news. Water ice could mean that after we finish destroying whats left of our water resources, (which could be very soon)Maybe we can move to Mars……I don’t think so…..

Ever leave a tray of ice cubes in the freezer for a few weeks. The ice cubes sublimate just like the ice on Mars. Based upon the atmospheric pressure, surface temperature, wind speed and the fact that the team at the JPL are not idiots, I would suspect that they’re making a fairly educated guess that the material being observed is water ice and not carbon dioxide ice. Give these guys some credit for God’s sake.

Speaking of God and the Bible, do you think Man would have understood God if he gave them a scientific account of how the earth was created? I have a firm belief in my Catholic faith and don’t see any contradictions in what science is showing us and what God shows us in His teachings. Christ used parables extensively to teach us. I think the story of creation is a way for us to understand that God has given us everything he just didn’t go into details….

Maned space craft would be more likely to get staged , due to the theory of the Van Allen Belt proved by the USSR way back then, I would trust the evidence that unmanned space craft have been used more then we know , kinda like the oodles of sats floating in space that nobody even knows about, but more then likely are linked into a high energy source such as HAARP designated sites. This looks to me like the remains of a world long destroyed due to Bombs,greed,genocide,Geothermal war and all the great little things that covert operations create right under our sorry tax paying noses. Only time will soon tell US the truth we have all been wondering, “Is there life outside this World of no shame?” Even when large media stifles a story , they thy self will have to fear what they protected.

Hey John, Mars landing is staged? You would mind sharing what you’ve been smoking with the rest of us?

Someone here asks if the money couldn’t be spent feeding the poor, etc. If this kind of research if not worthwhile why do we spend immensely larger sums forcing high school kids to learn about the solar system, the place of the earth in the universe,etc. Don’t believe me? This mission cost almost 1/2 bilion dollars while a recent year’s funding for No Child Left Behind was $23 billion. Nearly 50 times as much. Couldn’t THAT money be put to supposedly better use? At least this Mars is producing a result I can see. What do i see after a year of NCLB? Nothing!

Well a lot of things can be hypothesized

Does anyone here know what the temperature is there ? Is it cold enough for liquid methane, or CO2 ?

And BTW H2O ice does sublimate on planet earth under certain conditions.

To “Not Stupid”: Water ice absolutely can sublimate. I’m a biophysicist and I use the lyophilizer in my lab all the time to pull the water off of frozen solutions of chemicals or proteins dissolved in water. Low pressure is the key.

Who the hell cares what it is? All this money we pay these brilliant minds and it is directed at seeing if there ever was life on Mars? It’s a complete waste of time and our hard earned tax dollars. Have them work on stem cell research or algae bio fuels so I don’t have to pay more at the pump. Or whatever happened to flying cars or at least cars that drive themselves and if they can’t do any of that…give me my damn money back cause you ripped it off from me in the first place.

Carbon dioxide would not have vaporized.

ice - possible water on mars?????? how far is mars?? guess i’ll need to buy another fishing pole with some very, very long fishing line to go with it.

Why wouldn’t it have sublimated a long time ago? This is only a few inches under the surface, not 100 feet down.
Wouldn’t the thrusters create some H2O right under the lander? I see H2O comes out of my car’s exhaust when it is cold out. That could explain some new ice that sublimates quickly.

Why guess and spaculate.
NASA, quick don’t suspense us. Its already so many days on Mars.

Is it water ice or CO2 ice?

Both are present and both would sublimate the way described.

Let’s keep expectations under control.

Yes, water sublimates Not Stupid. Even here, a lot of snow that falls sublimates rather than melts. Look at water’s phase change diagram on google.

It disappeared quickly, while Phoenix was soil training itself.
Partial pressure of ice is low. Quick evaporation possible ?
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/ice/Vapor2.gif

Do you think the lack of atmosphere and dramatic changes in the atmosphere from the uninhibited energy from the sun? I apologize if this was discussed already..I couldnt read anymore this thread got hijacked by baseheads..

Did they really find water ice on pluto? I thought we really cant tell yet until that fly-by unmanned spacecraft reaches in a few years…

Does anyone know if they plan on sending a drilling craft to one of those moons from a gasey planet (forget which one, it looks like a frozen pond breaking all over..i want to say europia but pretty sure its not)…

I pretty much am asking, was the guy who said we have located water ice all over talking out his crass and buying into these programs speculations (that seem to rely way too much on their budget getting approve and spinning what we got so far)? Yeah insomnia, i dont know whats the history channel and whats a day dream…its really driving me crazy,

…it’s martian OIL!! Quick tell Bush to raise a campain for full scale invasion on the pretext of “Mars could and probably will be a threat to all Americans and their freedom”

The substance exposed doesn’t look like ice to me. Ice is transparent, not opaque white. Snow is opaque white, but I would have thought it impossible for snow to lie under the topsoil. It shouldn’t be CO2 because of the vast amounts of hydrogen detected. Looking forward to the continuation of this amazing saga…

Water ice does sublimate. It is the only way the ice cubes disappear out of my freezer. I fill the trays at the end of summer and by spring the ice is gone and it is not from being used, I live alone and the cat can not reach the handle.

i think robots on mars are cool untill they work out how to get humans on and off the suface

A lot more money should be spent on science (like Phoenix Marslander, Hubble Telescope, the Cassini mission to Saturn/Titan, Kepler, Glast, Mars Rovers Opportunity/Spirit etc) than burnt in Iraq. That is a waste of huge huge amounts of money. Just down the drain. Stupid politicians.

They know its not carbon dioxide because Co2 would have evaporated within a much faster time. Every article on this discovery has said that.

Highlighted HILARIOUS (and some ALMOST hilarious) comments:

1) “Cluster of white microbeings gathered to look at the giant robot”
- THAT’s one Jay Leno can use! BUAHAHAAA!!

2) “Rock on. Lets go there and make a swimming pool”
- earned a chuckle.

3) “Probably Martian cocaine. DEA should look into NASA suspicious activities on Mars.” - hehehe

4) “They almost got my webbed foot in the photo. Silly Earth people.” (from MELMAK - I got it…) …a true grinner…heh

One that I thought about but someone beat me to the concept:
5) “So now we have ice… who’s bringing the tumbler, the Wodka and the Martini?”

So there ya have it… the “Top 5″. I hope Leno picks up on this stuff.

Smile, everyone…enjoy a few chuckles amongst the serious (and extremely interesting) happenings on Mars.

IS THERE ANY OIL ON MARS??????

you know i like the one guys idea…are we working on the light speed engines yet? Why the heck are dumping billions of dollars into the unprioritzed useless pit!? I wonder how many billion starving people we could have fed or destroyed homes replaced with that money HERE BACK ON EARTH! Sort of like all this presidential MILLION DOLLAR fund raising we stupidly do, all to get one idiot in the white house that looks good on the outside; until we give him the job. That goes for Dems./ and Rep. alike. What a darn waste of money we all put up with. It’s time for a new tea party. Heck with re-using tax payor money to have a second set of poles in Florida. Put out a shoe box and count the votes. The candidates are not worth much more then that.

Someone wrote about religious fanatics and how they will react to the news if life is discovered on Mars. They will most likely deny it but the people with an open mind who don’t take the Bible word for word will let it pass because they are open enough to the possibility that their could be a flaw in their belief. Everybody thought the Earth was at the center of the Universe but now its excepted by everyone as ludicrous.

Oh goody!!!!!!! Are we finding the things that will enable us to begin our rape of Mars!!!!!!!!!

if DG is pissed about the “billions” that we are “dumping” into space exploration why don’t you worry about the TRILLIONS going into a war that we are waging. You can criticize anything that we are doing but it seems that people don’t like to notice the good thats happening. Billions are going to relief for people all over the world. We are the leading supplier of help in the world. So its not like were neglecting starvation for space exploration. Do some research.

This is amazing, but how will they bring it untouched back to earth?

According to the weather report from the lander, the temp has
been ranging from -80 to -32C and pressure 8.29mbar. 1 atmosphere
pressure is about 1 bar, so 8.29mbar is <0.01 atm.

Googling “carbon dioxide phase diagram” and taking the first image
hit (for me from U. Wisc.) indicates that CO2 at 0.01atm sublimes at
-120C (at 1atm it sublimes at -78.5C)…so…can’t be CO2 if the weather
report is correct…CO2 would only be a gas.

Trillions of dollars spent on this while thousands of children die of starvation and disease every day.

This is all a liberal hoax. Their is no spacecraft on mars! Its just like the faked moon landings. It has been proved that nothing can escape the earth gravity. This is just things to distract us from the important things that we need to be paying atention to. The terrrorists want to kill us and this is just a bucnh of fluff and lies. People you bettter wake up before were all talking muslum and going to moscque. This is just the kind of think barak hussein obama wants you to believe. Im not falling for it! I know whats important! They talk about water and life at mars. Thats makes no sense. This is the only place God put life and water. It he wanted us to goto mars he would have put us their. There isnt even enough gravity on mars for life. I get so sick of them talking about whuether life ‘evolved’ on mars. That liberal theory is poisining our kids minds! That theory is proved to be a lie. Their is a musuem in kentucky that every body needs to goto. It shows just how we came to be here and how God made the life in the past and how the dinosausrs was killed. Everythinng that God made was at one time. Noting evolves from anything. Yes some animals are dead now but they was here all at one time. Just because dionosaurs are dead now dont proove that they evloved anymore than we evolved. They died out. Thats all. I just cant wait untill the day I can say I told you so when all this is out. You cant fool evey body all the time but you can fool stupid liberals all the time. WAKE UP PEOPLE!

Cosmic revealation is a looooooooooooooong way to go!

How can anyone not be excited by this amazing accomplishement? I’m following progress hourly and can’t wait for the analysis results. If traces of living things, whether long dead or alive now, are revealed, this will change forever the way we see ourselves and the universe. Go to it guys!

Phoenix will find ice there in mars, question is will is find organic molecules inside the white ice? if it finds it then mission ..

organic matter is out there in space.. lol..

its a simple matter of uncovering martian larva and them crawling off camera…

So!!!!

We are now on Mars with all this technology but cant figure out why not build Solar/Nuclear power plants and generate Hydrogen to fuel our cars?

I think that is a shame, oh well.. politics

could it be a huge crystal stone?

I think it’s really interesting that so many people seem to think they know so much more than the NASA scientists that have been working on this mission for years.

Correct me if I am wrong:
If you look at a Phase diagram of Carbon Dioxide you will notice that CO2 turns from Solid to Gas at -78degC (BUT only if the pressure is 1 atmosphere). The problem is that the pressure on Mars is less than 1% of earth’s sea level pressure. This means that solid CO2 can’t exist on Mars - in fact it would be horrifically unstable at the surface. Hence H2O is a good bet - if one studies Phase diagrams.

If my name is not John Luke Picard of the Star Ship Enterprise!!I always thought O’brien was a hotheaded irish flat foot. gah! Get La’forge down there. His ultra-ray specs can detect the leak!

The only problem with that, Mr Bosenberg, is that frozen/solid CO2 does exist on Mars. In fact, when winter sets in in the northern hemisphere, the Phoenix will be encased in solid CO2.

Next up at your local liquor store - bagged Martian Ice.

Apparently the first manned mission will have ice to go with their scotch.

“The substance exposed doesn’t look like ice to me. Ice is transparent, not opaque white. ”

———————————————————————

Ice can be opaque if the are inpurities in the water - highly likely in the dusty martian environment.

Location, Location, Location

Why did they send this probe to the polar regions to look for signs of life?

If you hadn’t scanned earth effectively enough to realize that humans didn’t live at the north pole, (ie if you lived to far away or were a blind species) and sent a probe to either the Arctic or the Antarctic to look for signs of life, you would probably come up with the fascinating conclusion that there was no life on earth, just that the planet was an icy wasteland incapable of sustaining life. The poles might not be a good place for a “life on Mars” search.

now for some black gold on mars….wonder what oil costs up there?!

All this talk about going to Mars by 2020, sending robots to gather samples of water to see if ‘life’ actually exsists or not.

For now, you should be focussing all of your attention on the moon, because that’s where people are going to live one day. Forget Mars for now, it’s just a waste land. There’s water on every planet, just common knowledge. Nasa just has an excuse to go to Mars, and it’s a pretty bad one too.

I am worried at the quality of evidence that is being presented to us. This is high school stuff not robust science. Viking missions had revealed similar white stuff long ago. Unlike the Pathfinder, Spirit and Opportunity, this mission seems to be on the ropes: lost communications, inability to load the soil, flash memory overload. Is NASA preparing us for failure this time? The premise of analyzing the soil just below and near the thrusters is questionable. Also the soil handling is a issues, if water sublimes on Mars, is it not questionable that shaking it might not alter it’s composition? NASA is and should be a risk taking organization. If half-a-billion dollars were screwed up, no big deal but they should not try to fool us! These dollars were far better spend then wasting them on a bogus war!! Go NASA - the right way!

I am worried at the quality of evidence that is being presented to us. This is high school stuff not hard science. Viking missions had revealed similar white stuff long ago. Unlike the Pathfinder, Spirit and Opportunity, this mission seems to be on the ropes: lost communications, inability to load the soil, flash memory overload. Is NASA preparing us for failure this time? The premise of analyzing the soil just below and near the thrusters is questionable. Also the soil handling technique is an issue. If water sublimates on Mars, is it not possible that shaking will alter it’s composition? Obviously scientists did not anticipate the soil behavior-so big deal!

NASA is and should be a risk taking organization. If half-a-billion dollars were screwed up and hard evidence for water on Mars is not there - it should not be a problem. Phoenix has advanced knowledge and we have learned great many things just by landing again on Mars. But NASA should not try to fool us with speculations! These dollars were far better spend then wasting them on a bogus war!! Go NASA - the right way!

The potential discovery of ice on Mars is interesting scientifically, and if verified, potentially useful if a base or long-term exploratory mission requires generation of potable water or hydrogen fuel on-locale. The existence of ice, however, is a very long way away from proving the existence of organic life forms on other planets. Even if found, verified, and proven beyond doubt, the existence of organic life on another planet does not shatter the reality of Biblical truth. Scientific discovery is not at odds with the Bible; rather, the more we discover about the creation, the more we can appreciate the Creator. Often, however, the Biblical world view is at odds with misinterpretations, philosophical pronouncements, and evils that result when science is exercised as a religion rather than as a systematic methodology for exploration, discovery, and innovation. As a practicing scientist (Ph.D.) and as a Bible-believing Christian, I applaud the efforts of NASA, other space agencies, and the affiliated scientists and engineers to expand our technological frontiers and our knowledge of the universe through these missions on Mars.

I submit that the picture without the “ice” is DOCTORED. I retouched photos for years, and removing objects from photos is my specialty. Where the “ice” was in the second pic, the areas are blurred, not defined and showing the ground texture. Overlaying the pictures and flipping one on and off, it is PLAINLY clear to see the blurred areas.

Wow. It took that many uninformed speculative comments before someone actually went and looked at the CO2 phase diagram and concluded the rest of you are idiots. IT’S WATER! L2 THERMODYNAMICS!

Ice on Mars? So what. I suppose the ignorant evolutionists think this means something. The Bible will be the only tru story of the origin of the universe even if they find little green men. Fat chance.

Wow, Alchemist..you said it best!!!

Anything laid in the sun, here or on Mars, gets pretty warm. If you want to know if it is ice or CO2 start with the energy from the sun per square cm. Ice/CO2 absorption bands determine how much of the sun’s energy is absorbed. Each atom then sublimates with the amount of energy equal to its lattice bonding energy at the local surface temperature. This tells you how fast ice/CO2 sublimates from this spot on Mars. Balance this against CO2/ice condensation from the atmosphere.

Most of NASA’s *kids* know this stuff. Bottom line, NASA knows it is ice, they are just doing the science correctly. Of course, none of this needed if you played with dry-ice (CO2) as a kid, it disappears fast. Not mentioned in this blog, the reason they are doing this is that the Odyssey’s spectrometers found large quantities of subsurface water (H2O) at the poles years ago, not CO2.

Go NASA. Ignore the bloggers for they shall inherit the earth, or what’s left of it.

to “James” who wrote “This is all a liberal hoax.”

Yeah I can see from your intelligent monologue that you’ve obviously spent a good time at that museum in Kentucky and just ate it all up without question.

“Im not falling for it!”

No, you just fell for the fairy tales you’ve been taught since childhood, like the one about the talking snake and how a man was made before the woman and how plants existed on Earth before the sun. Yeah, *we’re* the ones just falling for a bunch of nonsense.

“It has been proved that nothing can escape the earth gravity.”

Oh has it? References please. And you can provide some formulas, too, to back up your statement.

“That liberal theory is poisining our kids minds! ”

And thank your god that my child won’t be taught all the fairy tales like the one about the talking snake, and oh yeah, my favorite, the one about the guy who walked on water and then died and came back and ate a fish.

“There isnt even enough gravity on mars for life.”

Please explain why that’s the case, and also please reference the courses you’ve had in biochemistry to help defend your assertions and prove you really do know what you’re talking about.

lols~

im “religious” as you would define it… and if a freaking alien landed in my back yard i wouldnt be shaken in my faith. the bible doesnt talk about a LOT of things that obviously exist in the world (or outside of this world). doesnt mean that if they exist the bibile is full of lies. it doesnt talk about lightning bugs, should i question my faith since they are in my back yard? silly boys….

Why are we discussing results of observations, among people that do not understand the science? It is ice - water ice.
The only thing lamer, are the comments being made on religion during a science discussion. Christianity is mythology, this is science. Scientific discovery is based on fact, not fantasy like the Bible.
Its freakin ice dude.

Ice = life what’s next?

What about when we land on Mars. Will astrologers have to make up something new since Mars will not be rising in anyone’s sign if they are on the Red Planet?
Oh yeah, and the discovery of water ice on Mars would be the discovery of the decade.

How do they know that the wind didn’t just blow some of the white particles away?